#6.Re:#63.
顺便说一下，罗马短剑是仿西班牙人和迦太基人使用的伊比利亚剑而成的。

#74.Re:#73.
Yeah, but Rome was at the verge of collapse when the Huns arrive in Europe.
Has there been studies that shows if the Han Crossbow can penetrate the Roman tower sheild
是啊，但是当匈族人到达欧洲的时候罗马帝国已经处于崩溃的边缘了。
有没有关于汉弩是否能穿透方盾的研究？

#76.
Isn*t this sort of like CSM v SM warfare? =).
Actually, I*m told the Romans have better morale, their troops are "harder". They*re very muscular from heavy road work, and their society glorifies the martial virtues(Rome only got to where it was by conquering its neighbors, it was not innately an economic power).
The Chinese general has to be very careful. If he screws up or dies, the entire Chinese army will break and get decimated. As long as this scenario does not occur, the Han can exploit their technological and doctrinal advantages.
By the way, what*s the history of siege crossbows? You know, the leg powered artillery crossbow? The first time I*ve encountered those were when I watched the movie "Hero", they don*t seem to pop up a lot in the popular culture.
是不是就像战锤40K里面的星际战士VS混沌星际战士一样？
实际上，罗马人的精神信念更顽强，他们的队伍更有“棱角”。他们有通过繁重的体力劳动练就的肌肉，他们的社会对尚武精神更加推崇（罗马人只愿意踏上已经被自己征服了的土地，他们的扩张不是因为经济实力）。
另外，攻城弩的由来谁知道？就是那种靠双腿力量上弦的弩，我第一次见识这玩意是在电影《英雄》里，这种发射方式在流行文化里不太常见。
战锤40K，最著名的桌面战棋游戏，看得起，买不起。

#77.Re:#76.
The Qin got to where it was from conquering its neighbors.The Han under Wudi conquered and destroyed the Xiongnu (huns) and broke their hold on Northwestern China.
The Chinese military expedition under Ban Chao, with 70,000 men, reached all the way to the Caspian sea in 97 AD. The Parthians seek an alliance with them because they were being conquered by the Romans under Trajan. When the Roman*s conquered the Parthian capital of Csitephon (sp), they were within 1 day march from Ban Chao*s border outpost. After Trajan*s death, the Romans withdraw...so did Ban Chao.
秦朝也是靠征服邻国实现其扩张的。武帝时代的汉朝征服了匈奴，把他们赶到了中国的西北方向。
公元97年，一支7万人的远征军在班超的带领下甚至到达了里海。为了反击图拉真率领的罗马军队，安息向汉朝寻求结盟。当罗马人占领安息首都斯宾的时候，大军距班超的边界观察哨只有一天的路程。图拉真死后，罗马人撤退，班超也撤军了。

Chinese military history is filled with turn and flee actions.
中国的军事史充满了溃败。
#79.Re:#72.
Wow Sumdud. You are a square. First off- you wrote rate of fire as RoF. Secondly, what kind of douche bag would apply the term rate of fire to a sword!?!?
72楼的你就是一土鳖，把“发射速率”简写成“发率”。哪种傻X会用“发射速率”表明一把剑的好坏？
#80.
Well, long sword are much more deadly at ar***ength, and short swords are very useful if you want to get intimate with your opponent. That way the Japanese samuri carrys 2 katanas most of the time, one long katana to attack and a short katana to defend and attack at short range.
长剑在一定的距离范围内更致命，如果你想和你的对手贴身肉搏，那就用短剑吧。看看一直带着两把长刀的日本武士，长的长刀用于进攻，短的长刀用于短距离上的攻防。

#90.Re:#89.
I know how they use the pilums, but how would the Chinese army fair against it?
我知道特制标枪的原理。问题是中国军队如何正面应对它的进攻？
#91.Re:#90.
Well, It*s easy to get close enough to use their pilum, advance in tortudoes to protect from the crossbow and reploy in the 3-lines formations after, it*s would easily pierce the Chinese Armor, the light pilum, of 750-900g can kill anykind of lightly or unarmored trooper, the 1,5kg heavy pilum can even pierce the heaviest armor. And BTW, for chinese assieging Roman, roman did some great fortification too, don*t underestimated them...
当罗马人迂回前进躲避开弩箭的攻击，并且展开三线阵型后，敌人很容易进入特制标枪的射程。轻型标枪，大约750-900克，能轻易穿透中国军队的盔甲，杀人任何的轻装步兵。1.5千克重的重型标枪甚至能穿透最后的盔甲。还有，当中国人包围罗马人的时候，罗马人的防御工事很出色，别低估这一点。
#92.
I*m sorry to break this to you, but crossbow bolts went straight through any armour that wasn*t plate, and could even pierce that when fired accurately enough.
Pilums didn*t work against the Huns, and they wouldn*t work against the Han either. Especially not against a complete mobile army like the Han were.
不好意思我想提醒你一点，弩箭能轻易穿透所有非板甲类的盔甲，如果射得好的话甚至能穿透板甲。
特制标枪不能击败匈族人，同样也不能击败汉人，尤其考虑到汉朝军队拥有出色的运动能力。
#93.Re:#92.
well, the roman curved shield offer much more protection that you can even think about it in this time and their armor was good to, the roman "armora locata" was better than the heavy chainmails used century later by knight, pilum don*t work against anykind of cavalry, don*t forget that, and the Huns were only cavalry, not the Han army...
罗马的弧面盾牌在当时能提供远远超过你想象的保护。他们的盔甲同样出色。罗马盔甲对于要害位置的保护甚至优于后世骑士们穿着的重型锁子甲。特制标枪面对骑兵确实很无力，但是别忘了，匈族人都是骑兵，汉朝军队可不同...

#94.Re:#89.
Catapults, yes yes. I know Roman uses it.
Roman soldiers are disciplane. And they*ve got nice shield. I read on books saying that China got some good formations too with good shields.
抛射装置，对，对，我知道罗马有这些东西。
罗马士兵纪律性强，装备着优质盾牌。可是书上说中国军队也可以用优质盾牌组成厉害的阵型。
#95.Re:#92.
I would say crossbow bolts can pierce plates, but not thick ones.
I agree with you on the pilum thingy. Chinese soldiers does have formations but when attacking, soldiers will just go anywhere on the battlefield hacking and slashing, I personally do not think Pilum will be any use.
我认为弩箭可以穿透板甲，也许太厚的不行。
关于特制标枪很无力的观点我同意。中国军队当然也有所谓“阵型”的概念，但当真正发起攻击的时候，士兵会随意出击寻找目标。我个人觉得标枪没有什么用。
#96.Re:#93.
Don*t forget it was the Han cavalry who drove the Huns from their capital.
别忘了正是汉朝的骑兵把匈奴的骑兵赶出了他们的首都。

#97.Re:#96.
Han cavlarymen were drawn from Chinese living on the frontiers. They had to fight the Huns constantly, and also lived a similiar nomadic lifestyle revolving around the horse. Chinese cavalry were of high quality, not much different from the Hunnish cavlary. They fought with composite bows, spears, and swords/shields.
汉朝骑兵是从生活在边疆的百姓中挑选出的。他们不得不经常和匈奴作战。生活方式也和游牧民族相似——以马为中心。中国骑兵部队质量很高，和匈奴没有什么不同。他们装备着复合弓、长矛、剑和盾牌。
#98.Re:#97.
i understand this point but the Han army was not only cavalry...
我明白这些，但是汉朝军队不完全是骑兵组成的吧...
#99.Re:#98.
But they had enough to destroy the Roman legions!
那也足够打垮罗马军团了！

#100.Re:#99.
At their apogy, the Roman Empire got a total of 24 legions, 16 cohorts in Rome (10 Praetorian and 6 Urban) and 122 cohort of legionnary garrison in cities. That mean aproximatly 208,920 men ready to fight. If all the units are destroyed, the conscription of citizen is an option...
巅峰时期，罗马帝国有24个军团，有16个步兵大队（大约300-600人）驻守在罗马（10个作为禁卫军，6个作为城市卫戍），还有大约122个步兵大队驻守在其他城市，那就是总共大约208920名士兵准备好去战斗。即使全军覆没，还可以从市民中征兵...

#101.Re:#100.
That was about one fifth the size of Han Imperial army. At its height Han empire fielded 15 hundred thousand cavalry. Both in terms of numbers and weapon production capacity, Rome is left sucking dust.
这只是汉朝军队规模的1/5，巅峰时期，汉朝拥有大约150万名骑兵，无论是数量上还是武器生产能力上，罗马肯定一败涂地。

#102.
I would love to see a Chinese epic movie around this time period but without the fantastical martial arts.
They could have a movie about the first emperor and shows the ancient chinese armies in all its glory.
我很想看一部展现真实历史而非充满奇幻元素的中国史诗电影。
他们应该制作一部关于秦始皇的电影，展现古代中国军队的风采。

#103.
Hi
When we talk about the Romans are we using the Western European meaning
for the term or the one used by the rest of the world ?
hi,我们平时说到的罗马人，只是西欧意义上的罗马人吗？还是所有罗马统治范围内的自由民？
#104.
We*re talking about the Roman Empire which ruled most of Europe for centuries, then collapsed due to low birth rates, bad emperors and stifling bearocracy.
我们说的是那个曾经统治欧洲数个世纪，然后因为生育率过低而崩溃的罗马帝国。混蛋皇帝以及死气沉沉的官僚体系。

#124.
Han Chinese - Missile weapons. Good cavalries, armours for every soldier, overwhelming numbers, smart and strategic generals.
Romans - Great formations and disciplane soldiers. Dunno more.
汉朝-强弩，优秀的骑兵，每个士兵装备有盔甲，数量上的优势，机智且有战略眼光的将领。
罗马-优秀的阵型，纪律性强的士兵。
#125.Re:#124.
Rome had discipline professional soldiers, career generals, and the best heavy infantry in the world at that time.
In order to beat them, the Parthians use their composite bows and refrain from closing in on them. Once the legionaries got you within melee, they will most likely have won.
罗马有专业士兵，职业将军，以及当时世界上最好的重步兵。
为了打败他们，帕提亚人不得不使用复合弓来避免和他们近距离接触。一旦重步兵和你近距离肉搏，他们就已经取得了胜利。
#126.Re:#125.
Yeah, they are soo good in fighting barbarians without good armour and with lower pop...
是啊，他们在对付赤膊上阵的没有文化的野蛮人的时候表现得非常优秀。
#127.
this thread is still alive?! LOL
are you guys just keep stating the same things over and over again?
这贴还没沉？！LOL
你们有完没完？
正如这位老兄所言，下面的帖子也差不多都是相同的内容了，汉朝对罗马基本上变成了弩兵对盾牌阵，中间还夹杂着大量的关于东西罗马历史的讨论。有兴趣的继续看原帖吧。
有同学质疑文章是抄来的，原帖确实早有人介绍过，我也是看了那篇帖子才想到去翻译的，大家可以去对比一下（google搜索“汉朝，罗马”），如果说立意不是原创，那么本文就算是一种补充与完善吧。

A good army does not depend on luck, so if it*s army is weakened by luck it will not be destroyed. A good army*s general always know where the enemy might ambush him and sends scouts forward. I think it depends mostly on the general, and there has been cases in history when an army that was outnumbered by the enemy 10 to 1 won the battle.
一支优秀的军队不是靠天吃饭的，即使运气不在他这边，也不会覆灭。好的将领往往能预测出敌人可能伏击的位置并且派出斥候侦查大军的行军路线。我认为（战争的胜负）基本上取决于将领的能力，也有很多的例子证明以一敌十不是神话。
Some times they do.
If the Romans had 3000 legions and Han has only 100 guards in a small city.
What if the city is near a cliff, and 2999 Romans sliped and died on accident? Then its 100 on 1 . LOL
不一定。比如说，3000罗马士兵包围了只有100汉朝士兵守卫的小城。如果城池靠近悬崖，2999个罗马倒霉蛋失足落入悬崖摔死了呢？然后罗马人可就是以一敌百了。LOL
#46.
you must be insane, liberator, 2999 died of slipping of a cliff?! if the general is smart, then he might not attack the city directly but rather surround the city and wait the enemies out. the enemy would eventually run out of food and water. see, no casualties.
楼上的不正常了，2999人坠崖摔死？罗马将军如果够机灵，应该围而不攻，等汉朝军队渴死饿死，那就是0伤亡了。

#47.
Rome do have very formidable discipline and tactics. But they do not have monopoly of it.
In han China, crossbowmen are arrange in 3 ranks to alternate fire (front rank - fires; rear rank reloads; middle rank -advance). Doing so ensures a consistant barrage. These crossbowmen are protected by a shield wall of heavy infantry from melee attacks.
罗马的军纪和战术都是令人畏惧的，但也不只是罗马。
汉代中国，弩兵分为三个轮次交替射击（第一轮次的射击，最后一轮的装箭，中间一轮的准备）。确保能形成一道连续不断的火力网。弩兵被手持盾牌的重步兵保护着避免遭遇肉搏战。